Baffle Box
A device through which dice are dropped to randomize a roll. The dice are deflected and jostled about as they fall through the box. (from the glossary at Backgammon Galore)
I am not sure when Baffle Boxes first appeared on the scene. They certainly weren’t around when I was on the international circuit in the 90s and I don’t recall seeing them at any UK tournaments in the noughties. I think the now-retired Tom Duggan might have been the first person I met to bring one over from the States perhaps 3 or 4 years ago.
It is safe to say that they haven’t caught on as much as they might. Take a trip to the Nordic or Monte Carlo and you might see half a dozen. Clocks and video equipment are far more prevalent.
I have a Baffle Box, one of Phil Simborg’s models that I procured from Colin Owen from St Albans and it is a recent email from Colin that has prompted me to write this article.
In that email Colin drew a line in the sand and said that he “will not play in a competition where a player has the intrinsic right to not use a baffle box”. (Reproduced with permission.)
Whether or not you think this action rather draconian or think that he is cutting off his nose to spite his face, you must admire such a principled stance whether you agree with it or not. So what are the arguments for and against BBs and can we find a middle ground to suit both parties?
The current UKBGF rules state the following with regard to Baffle Boxes:
3.4 Baffle box
(i) SITUATIONS – The use of a baffle box may occur as an option, preference, obligation, or imposition:
(a) Option: In any Tournament the players may choose to play the match using a baffle box if they are in agreement;
(b) Preference: A player may insist that the match is played using baffle box, if it is announced in the Tournament invitation that the Tournament, or part thereof, is to be held with a preference for baffle boxes;
(c) Obligation: Players shall be obliged to play the match using a baffle box, if it is announced in the Tournament invitation that the Tournament, or part thereof, is to be held with an obligation to use baffle boxes; and
(d) Imposition: In any Tournament the players are obliged to play the remainder of a match in progress using a baffle box, if a baffle box is available and the Tournament Director makes [a ruling to impose one]
This is pretty standard fare. From my experience the UK Open and the London Open Championship flights were BB Preference. I have never heard of a tournament where BBs are mandatory (Obligation), and the only occurrence I can recollect of a TD imposing a BB on a player because of some grumblings about his throwing action was at this year’s World Champs.
There are some TDs around the country that make no secret of the fact that they are dead against BBs, John Wright (Liverpool Open, Blackpool Open) being one, but if two players agree, John would not be churlish enough to prevent them from playing with one.
Note that if one player wants to use a BB for his rolls then the opposing player cannot have any serious objection, so you might see one player using a BB and the other rolling normally. Indeed this was the case in a couple of my matches in Monte Carlo.
I always use a BB for my rolls. I do this for two reasons.
- Practicalities– it is far quicker to use a BB than to roll properly, which makes the game more enjoyable as well as giving me more time to think while the clock is ticking. It is also far easier, there is no need to shake the dice – you just drop them in, and you very rarely get cocked dice (don’t you hate having to roll again after a super joker?) and you never get dice on the floor.
- Education – the more people seeing BBs in use and learning about the above, the more they will be accepted and in turn be more commonplace (I am not on commission from Phil Simborg by the way!), so consequently the more chance that my opponent will use one too.
I’ll come back to reasons pro BBs later, but I now want to list the arguments I have heard from various quarters over the years against BBs. I do not claim that these are exhaustive and perhaps the comments at the end of this article will list some more.
- They are noisy/ugly
- Never used one before/they are not very common
- They disrupt the flow of the game
- “Rolling well is part of the skill of the game”
- They get rid of a fun part of the game – the rolling, the tension-building shaking of dice etc
- They imply that my rolling is not legal
- They imply that I am a cheat
Now let’s take these in turn..
- BBs come in all shapes and sizes and admittedly my BB sounds a little harsh when the dice go through them –but it looks quite nice, in my humble opinion. Wooden BBs have a lovely sound as they fall through. Wooden boards have (thankfully) been replaced by felt surfaces and we all agree that aesthetically most boards hit the spot. BBs will get better as the years go by but if (1) is one of your reasons, have a look at the general BG playing fraternity – there’s quite a few loudmouths and not many oil paintings, agreed?
- A fallacious argument that I am only mentioning because, like (1) I have actually heard this a few times. These people would never have started playing BG (or indeed do anything!) with this logic.
- BBs actually improve the flow of the game – quicker, no need to (vigorously) shake forever – I had to squeeze it in somewhere didn’t i? No cocked dice, no looking for perfectly camouflaged dice on the carpet etc. This argument typically comes from people who have never used a BB. Once they have they will never use this excuse again.
- If you honestly believe that rolling is a skill then I recommend you start honing your talent – you will make a fortune playing Craps, where the only skill is rolling.
- I have some sympathy with this argument. I have been witness to someone at a big tournament playing to the crowd at a crucial moment at DMP; shaking his dice for eternity (a la Peter Chan) and taking a run-up to the table before releasing his dice. Agreed – a little of this is lost with a BB
- and 7. Now we get to what I believe is the crux of the issue. Please note that (6) and (7) are not the same thing. Off the top of my head I can think of a dozen experienced players that do not roll legally for a variety of reasons. Not one of these do I consider a cheat.
I see my opponent rolling illegally? What do I do? I politely point out that there is a problem and clearly explain. I state that the move is invalid and ask that he rolls again. What if the dice showed an anti-joker, what if the roll was borderline? What if the roll was a super-joker and my opponent thinks it should stand?
These are situations I do not want to have to deal with over the BG board. If I do not point out every roll that is illegal I can be accused of cherry-picking . If I do, the game can be very long and frustrating. When do I call the TD? Is each player allowed to ask kibitzers what they think? Do I ask that the game has an observer from now on? Imagine the ill-feeling that might arise.
The use of a BB avoids all these potential. Issues. When my opponent rolls incorrectly I do get wound up, regardless of whether their roll was good for them or not. In the past (being such a nice guy) I would have just shrugged and resigned myself to their inability to roll. I won’t do this anymore and I hope that you, readers, will follow my lead. You shouldn’t suffer because of your opponent’s inadequacies. It is bad enough them being rewarded for making a poor play but that is part and parcel of the game and something you cannot do anything about!
Obviously rumours abound and dice – mechanics do exist in the world, and it might well be that an opponent of yours is asking to use a BB because he thinks you are a cheat. Are you giving credence to his belief by agreeing to use a BB? Not at all, consider yourself as rising above such distrust and show him that you will win by skilful checker play and astute cube action. I state here that I have seen no evidence of malpractice by anyone in the BG community.
So the next time we face each other over the board and I politely ask you if you mind if we use a BB, please bear in mind that I will ask this of every opponent I meet, and it is nothing personal. You may be one of the players I know who cannot roll properly unless constantly reminded, or you may not – I certainly won’t tell you unless you want me to.
And if you decline the offer of a BB, please be prepared to be picked up on any rolling indiscretions and again – nothing personal.
There is one argument for BBs that I haven’t mentioned yet and this is from individuals that believe that even with correct rolling, the dice aren’t random enough or that in cups it is possible subconsciously or consciously to influence the dice (we are not talking about dice mechanics here). I have no truck with this. If someone rolls correctly I would be perfectly happy with the randomness of the roll. Any influence on dice from the human psyche is IMHO a load of crap. You can visualise or have some special routine for rolling, but there is no such thing as lucky or unlucky rollers, just good and bad players.
So how can these opposing factions come together? Can I envisage BBs being played on every board at tournaments in the future? No. Unlike clocks that big tournaments nowadays make mandatory, I cannot see BBs following the same route. I can foresee them getting more popular – St Albans has four members who own BBs and I wager that number will double within a couple of years.
But is it fair for players to insist on BBs and is there any way that we can avoid principled people like Colin missing out on the game he loves?
I propose that as a default in tournaments the two opinions be weighted equally. As mentioned earlier I do sympathise with argument (5) so someone who likes the feel of rolling and in particular rolling jokers should not automatically be denied that thrill. On the other side of the coin, someone who does not want to be put in the situation of having to vet each and every roll of their opponent and to deal with the possibly very awkward consequences when they apply the rules should also be respected.
A fifth option “Neutral” should be the default option applied in all tournaments across the country. As is the case, if need be, with choice of direction of play and colour of checkers, players should roll for the use of BBs if one player insists. This would placate me (and Colin) and would not make BB-haters feel that the device has been forced upon them.
Let the comments begin.
I have read the comments with interest over the past few days, and having also listened to quite a few players have come to the following conclusions.
First of all I would like to reply to some of Colins comments.
I would like to start by saying that it is often difficult to express oneself in text and sometimes that may lead to comment and an attempt at humour to be taken a little out of context .
If anyone was offended by my “paranoid” comment I apologise, and I didnt mind being called deluded :-).
Colin was correct in regards to my comment about there being no problems at the events I have attended , although I do always make a point of chatting to the tournament directors and support staff about how the tournament went and any problems they encountered , I obviously cannot be aware of any “private” problems between two players.
In regards to my “self congratulatory challenge” I wasnt thinking that anyone would take this too seriously , however Colin is correct in saying a cheat would hardly make himself known .
Colins comments regarding my stance at the UKBGF Open were taken on board and I agree that knowing the rules beforehand I should have played with a BB should I have encountered that situation.
I can see ,and hear, that pro and anti campaigners have quite strong views and as the pro camp contain several people who I respect as players and friends I have personally changed my opinion to the following :-
I would be happy for the ruling to be changed to players rolling for preference as in direction etc , however on a personal note I will in the future play with one if my opponent like Jon, Anna, Tim, Colin etc have a strong feeling toward one.
I dont have final say in regards to rules etc at Blackpool and Liverpool as both tournaments are run as a group operation. I will however discuss this with the other players involved and try to move to BB being used with players having an option to roll if there is any disagreement.
Hopefully with a little compromise we can all move forward for the good of the game, and proves that perhaps I am not so “narrow minded” after all……….no offence taken 🙂 .
Happy Rolling.
Regards John.
I thank John for his post, and do appreciate his ‘threat’ at the UK Open had a humorous content. I hope us BB players are better understood as a result of these discussions, and seen as ‘particular’ rather than the other ‘p’ word. Actually, if a BB player really was paranoid, it seems to me only humanistic to agree to use the damn thing. I believe mental illnesses fall into two broad categories: psychoses and neuroses. If psychotic, the sufferer will have NO insight into their condition; if neurotic, they may have insight, but may still be powerless to change without therapeutic and/or medicative intervention. Either way, why would we want to torment them further by merely rolling straight onto the board?
I totally understand how some players strongly want to roll without a BB. It’s their hobby, they want to enjoy it, and in chouettes, heads up and private matches they never, ever have to use one…and there’s nothing remotely unethical about that. But tournament play is backgammon’s form of competition; it’s your best versus my best – within the time allowed – with the unavoidable luck factor thrown in. As the latter should be inviolate – and seen to be – maybe our preferences for ‘standard’ rolling should carry less weight here…or even be put on hold?
Jon’s hope that BB Neutral be built into the fabric of the Rules is ambitious (even if he is on the Rules Committee) but, at the very least, both BB and Clock Neutral (looking at synonyms, I prefer this term to Clock Aloof or BB Non-combatant) should surely be a fifth option for tournament organisers? I’m sure I’ve occasionally read of players rolling for BB or just cups before, and I’m told that Gammonitis employed this.
A final point. If rolling for cups or BB, the arguments generally provided against the latter, listed by Jon – like ‘3’ or ‘5’ – logically cannot be allowed to influence how these potentially crucial one or two rolls are taken. Why crucial? Because of the faint possibility of ‘7’.
This will be my last post in this thread!
Firstly thank you for a great debate.
If you elect not to use a BB you must :-
1) shake the dice cup vigourously at atleast 2 times
2) release the dice atleast 2 inches above the playing surface
3) not take any offense if someone questions your rolling
4) change your rolling instantly and constantly from that point onwards if someone questions your rolling
or
you could just use a BB
It is as simple as that.
If you shake your dice properly, you won’t be asked to use a BB.
If you don’t shake your dice properly, you are playing illegally – why should I have to tolerate that?
Methinks the ante BB crowd protest too much…..
And all this talk about beginners being put off is a smokescreen.
Sean – If you shake your dice properly – and we all know that you do 🙂 – what do you care, if I want to impose a BB on someone who does not? All you’re doing is enabling the illegal roller, to roll illegally.
I cannot stress enough, that I too love to shake and roll from a cup. But, I disagree with you that it’s a tiny minority. Also, most of these people don’t even realise that they’re doing it – it’s habit – and it’s not my job to cure people of bad habits by constantly having to point out that they are not shaking their dice.
Many times I have voiced the fact that an opponent has not shaken his dice – creating a bad atmosphere – only for my opponent to roll legally once, and then go back to not shaking for the rest of the match, because that’s the way they play.
I want to have fun when I’m playing BG and I can’t have fun if I’m having to point out UKBGF rules. And 99% of the time I don’t say anything because it creates such a bad atmosphere.
Also, as I’ve said before, some of these people are my friends.
Friends with bad habits.
I have sympathy with this argument. If a player is not shaking the cup, or rolling such that the dice travel across the surface reasonably, then it is a shame if the opponent has to feel awkward about mentioning such. It just feels to me that baffle boxes are an unattractive solution to that problem. I don’t much fancy seeing a room full of baffle boxes – to me the shaking and rolling action seem a fun part of the game. I like the fact some players have personality with their rolling. The boxes seem to dehumanise that a little.
Perhaps we just need to be a bit more open, as a group, to picking people up on their bad rolling habits when we see them occur the first time. I do not really think players are advantaged by this but it is irritating when people do not shake or just allow the dice to come out of the cup in a way that means they don’t tumble across the surface.
Sean……….being a little more serious about BB’s…………
From the recent posts I guess the main reason some players that want to use Baffle Boxes is to get Random Dice Rolls………
This I guess is, because some players just do not shake their dice properly………
Now firstly…..Do all Pro Baffle Box users agree that………When a Player Shakes and Rolls properly this creates a Random Dice Roll ? I will answer for you…….Yes !!!!
Now let’s ask the question : What percentage of Players do NOT shake their Dice ( Constantly ) properly ?
I am guessing about 2 to 4 %……..Maybe a little more but not much !
Now ask the question …….. Because of this TINY minority………
Do we need to make Baffle Boxes more common place and eventually compulsory ?
NO ! Is the Answer !!!!!
You do not change Rules or Practice because of a TINY minority !!!
Unless you are an MEP coarse !!! Actually I could get very Political here ! But I won’t ( don’t want to offend the Minority’s do we ! )
Also out of the Top Players none, do not Shake and Roll properly ! So it doesn’t get them far does it !
A quick word on the Minute percentage of Players that think one can Manipulate Dice ! Are you for real ? I totally agree with John Wright over this 100%…….
Do you seriously think they would be playing Backgammon ? I’m guessing they would be travelling the Planet 1st Class, staying in Top Hotels, Driving Aston Martins, own luxury apartments and have a Hot long legged Blonde either side of them ! Not going to Downtown Ealing on a Thursday night !
In every Sport or Game their is always a TINY minority who do NOT do as they should ! ……And guess what ! They do NOT change Practices because of them. Full Stop !
When Maradona scored against England in the World Cup with his HAND and Players still do similar such as Henry keeping the ball on the pitch with his Hand, then set up a goal which knocked Ireland out !
Did the Rules or Practices of Football change ? No !!!
Maybe they could have punished the Majority of Players by Chopping their Hands Off before being allowed to play Football !!!!
We must not go down the road of change because of TINY MINORITY !!!
We should educate them instead !!!! The emphasis should be on Them, NOT Us the MAJORITY !!!!
What should be done to eliminate this problem is………
1) At the Start of all Tournaments Large or Small. The TD should Stand and say Legal Moves Only….. And Legal Shaking of the Dice Only…….And while saying Legal Shaking….actually hold a Cup and Shake to show the TINY Minority how it should be done ! Coming from a TD is the only way to get it clearly in the Heads of this TINY Minority !!!! Coming from a Player during the match nearly always causes un wanted Friction !
2) The First illegal Shake and Roll should be picked up on. No matter what the Roll is ! If you see a bad Number for them and let them proceed, this would be totally hypercritical and not good practice…….I feel 1 warning would suffice but then the second should be drawn to attention of the TD…….
Once we all do this to the TINY Minority of None Shakers the TINY Problem will go away !
I also must state again that the action of Shaking and Rolling your Dice is one of the parts of the game you can Express your Personality !
During the coarse of a game there will be a few occasions where you need to Hit the right numbers !!!! This is where the game comes alive ! This is what it’s all about ! The Big Moments !
Each Player has their own Routine and Style !!!….Picking Up of the Dice, Placing them in the Cup, Shaking and Rolling ! During this process one can Express their Personalities to the Full. Many Players don’t even realise their Body Language at these times. Just watch each Players style. You will be amazed ! One Player always springs to my mind. His Shaking and Rolling at these times is Super Cool and oozes Style and Confidence ! It’s so good I want to adopt it myself ! Give him a BB and all this is Lost ! Let’s see if you can guess who ?
Using a Baffle Box, these Big Moments become Sterile, Machine Like, etc !!!!
One might as well play on an I Pad !!!!
In all Sports the Big Moments have Big Emotion and Actions Actions Actions !
Johnny Wilkinson ( Kicks ) John McConroe ( Serve ) Ronaldo ( Free Kicks )
Ronnie O’sullivan ( Every Shot ! ) Federa ( Always Super Cool when at Match Point Down )
Ali ( The Ali Shuffle ) now if he played Backgammon. The whole Planet would !
You see in Big Moments you need to be able to Express your Personality !
Now how’s Colin Owen tonight ? Hope your good…..
Glad you liked some of my previous post !
I know your feelings on Baffle Boxes…… However I and others want you to play on Tuesday nights…… You are a great Player and we need you playing ! All clubs need their top players playing ! So I put this to you…….
As you know we usually get about 16 Players. Of which 1 does not Shake properly ! So 15 Do ! This equates to 6.25% that Don’t …..So you being drawn against this person or playing them in the later rounds are very slight !
This is a TAKE ! Not a DROP !
So being a Statistical Perfectionist as I know you are ! I will see you on Tuesday night set up and ready to go play !!!!
Just one other note before I go …….A friend of a friend of mine manages a Casino. I mentioned to him about using Baffle Boxes in Craps………
He replied with 2 Words……The Second was Off !!!!!!!!!
…regarding the 6.25%er at St Albans, I played for the first time on that player’s board on Tuesday. I now see why they have such difficulty shaking properly: the cups are large, the dice quite small. Even my large fingers had difficulty containing the dice. If we can sort out this simple equipment failure, we can easily get to 100% exemplary rolling.
Have been highly amused by this debate 🙂 very entertaining !
I want to make it absolutely crystal clear that I am not suggesting anyone can manipulate the dice. And when people are tipping out double after double I’m absolutely certain that they do not have the power to do that – otherwise they would be world champ.
What I’m saying is simply this: Time and time again I play people who throw a double, pick their dice up, put them in the cup – don’t move them at all (they move the cup gently from side t side without moving the dice) and they tip out double after double because the dice have not been moved, let alone shaken.
What I’m saying is:
1. It is illegal, not according to me, but according to UKBGF rules, and a baffle box puts a halt to illegal rolls.
2. I played someone recently who did this. I never said a word. I lost the match and went home feeling cheated.
My opponent was absolutely not trying to manipulate the dice, nor cheat in any way, but we played a whole match with me shaking vigorously and him rolling illegally.
If you have rules, surely they need to be enforceable in the easiest way possible and, it seems to me, baffle boxes do that.
Help are we going around in circles. Perhaps we need a clock on the debate.
From what I have read I think baffle boxes may serve two purposes:
1/ to assure our anxieties that the other player has some ability to fix dice. Whether or not the other player can. Somewhere or sometime there is a game where the perfect dice are thrown each roll for one player. There will be a game with 6 double sixes in a row. Enough monkeys Shakespeare etc
2/ More importantly they may help some players with problems with their hands play. This is not a game about the physicality of playing but about the ability to understand probability and position. Yes there is a pleasure in the movement of dice in a throwing cup but we should not insist players who can not do that cannot partake. For accessibility maybe each club should ensure they have a baffle box available? I need to think about that.
Good Afternoon
I have a few minutes to spare so I thought , as I have a strong opinion on this I may as well contribute.
First of all thanks to Jon for his thought provoking post and putting the case so eloquently .
I find myself in full agreement with Alastair, Sean and bizarrely, for the first time in over thirty years, Danny. 🙂
My stand is quite simple in that I dont like them and feel they have no place beside a backgammon board.
The conspiracy theorists with their paranoid scaremongering about dice manipulation is tiring, I have been playing for over 40 years and have yet to meet anyone that can throw a specific roll from a lipped cup . I am willing to give £1000 to your chosen charity if you or anyone you nominate can throw 2 successive chosen rolls, all I ask is you donate £20 to my charity when you cant do it.
I think that is probably the last we will hear about that .
In the past few years I have attended many tournaments :-
Istanbul 140+ players no BB , no problem
USA very few BB ,no problem
Nordic 400+ very few BB no problem.
The strongest players in the world attend these events and there is simply no clamour for the use of BB.
One thing that worries me is that some players are capable of turning any online debate about backgammon into a discussion about the “dark side” (see bgonline) and, as Alastair quite rightly pointed out, any beginners visiting this site for the first time would be likely to think that dice manipulation and sharp practice is rife when that simply isn’t the case.
Grant Hoffman pointing out that his uncle could palm cards etc etc has simply no relevance to dice being launched from a lipped cup.He even goes on to say that he made it to a final using a BB ???
The recent UKBGF Open was attended by 140+ players and a quick count revealed less than half a dozen in use. The tournament was BB preference which meant any player could insist on a match being played with one.
I fail to see how the UKBGF committee have sanctioned this ruling for UKBGF events as it is quite clear that the vast majority of players do not use them.
Out of the 8 UKBGF committee members I would be interested to know who is in favour of this ruling as this will influence my vote in the next round of elections 🙂 .
Finally Jon asked the question “why should a principled player like Colin miss out on the game he loves ?”
The answer is quite simple, he can attend and support UKBGF events , which he failed to do. The BB preference UKBGF rule plays , in my humble opinion, into the hands of a small minority.
Perhaps the players that will really miss out are players like myself as I made it abundantly clear on the run up and during the UKBGF Open that if I was drawn against a player insisting on a BB that I would resign the game.
So if you spot someone sulking in the corner of a BB preference event 5 minutes after the draw is made that will probably be me . My Baffle Box loving paranoid opponent will be the one with the strange plastic contraption sticking out the back of his trousers. :-).
Happy rolling.
John Wright
Hi John,
My comments about my uncle were to show that people who you thought were nice guys (he was a lovely man) could be cheats. Yes it was with cards but if it was profitable enough he would have learnt dice manipulation techniques.
I use a Baffle box and you can use your hands (as I do) or cups to drop them in the box. It eliminates any worry that I or my opponent is not shaking the cup well enough. Imposing a certain number of shakes and enforcing that is too hard.
As I am the TD here Baffle boxes will be use in every final.
Excellent John and glad to read this. Makes me keen to support your tournaments. Your point about lipped cups is spot on. Vigorous shakes and dice travelling across a surface is a good thing to see. Let us be realistic however – dice coming out of a lipped cup are not open to manipulation. The only positive I can think of them that stands up to scrutiny is if they cause fewer occasions of cocked dice.
I have no time for player paranoia over randomness forcing Baffle boxes to be used. I think the best thing to do is to allow rolling for them, like is done for direction, etc. However if that is agreed perhaps the committee need to agree whether that is done by a baffle box or not. I would suggest one die shaken by cup and one by Baffle Box
BAffle boxes do stop bad and illegal rolling. They will not stop switching dice in and out of play. One way to do that is to have only 2 dice and either a clock or tapping the side of the board (we do this at our club and tournaments).
I was going to tell you of Brett Meyer (a magician and keen backgammon player) who switched dice in to a tournament while being watched but I though it better to email him and let him tell the story himself :-
“When I was playing in a ABT event in Charlotte in January, 2009, I told a few high-level BG players (between official matches) that I could bring weighted dice into a game without them noticing. I told them what I was going to do, so they were watching me closely…but it didn’t matter. I was easily able to switch dice without anyone knowing it. I proved to them after the game (which I won w/ a doubled gammon) that the dice had been switched. I did not show them how I did it nor did I tell them when I did it (on my 4th roll). It’s a matter of a LOT of practice with palming, lapping, and misdirection.” Brett Meyer.
When I used to show poker players how to spot card sharps they would all tell me “I have been playing for x years and never been cheated.” Bolivian Nitrogenous waste. Wake up – lets make it as hard as possible for cheating to occur.
I want Baffle boxes as they make it harder to cheat and remove ill will if you have a dodgey roller and are faster.
Mr Meyer is a world famous illusionist if any player allows him to choose colour and size of dice then perhaps they need to be a little more careful.
This thread is about the use of baffle boxes and wouldn’t have helped in that situation.
I know I few lads in my city that could make your whole board disappear including dice, scoreboard, cups, camera, tripod and if it was a ukbgf event the baffle box as well
This obsession with Baffle Boxes amazes me. Perhaps those who are so keen to use it may care to list other dice games that use a baffle box because they do not trust the person that throws the dice.
In addition, dice can get stuck in a baffle box – this can lead lead to loss of time in clock matches!!
So maybe Jon when you lost a match recently when you were timed out – was it because the dice got stuck in the Baffle Box!!!
As I remarked in another post, dice towers are becoming more prevalent in some games, like Role Playing Games or Wargaming but, not being familiar with other games I can’t fully answer that question. And just because they may use them it does not mean that “they do not trust the person that throws the dice.” It means that, ultimately, they shouldn’t have to – but that is a concept that anti BB players struggle to comprehend. If, in backgammon, we ‘trusted the person that throws the dice’ we would not require cups, which they don’t in many other games.
I sold Jon a BB – with things I added to deflect the dice further. Ask him how often dice get stuck in it.
John – yeah, but if anyone was silly enough to steal a baffle box, would they have any idea what it was? I can just picture the ebay posting now….”Novelty children’s helter skelter for sale – flashing disco lights and Thomas the tank engine sounds have been installed for extra amusement….”
John Wright feels that BB “have no place beside a backgammon board.”
This statement can mean nothing other than being beside ANY backgammon board, ie whether his own or anyone else: What a remarkably narrow minded perspective. No matter that, in his tournaments he would, it seems (according to Jon Barnes) allow players to use a BB by mutual agreement; he still doesn’t feel that it should be there! Surely, if two consenting adults sit down to play backgammon, and both desire to use a BB for their rolls, then it has its place.
John refers to the many tournaments he’s attended, including the Nordic and Istanbul, and in the USA – at which very few, or no BB were used, he observed. He states that there were ‘no problems’ at any. Sounds great. But what does he mean exactly?
He must mean that he’s sure that nobody went to the TD or other staff to complain about their opponents illegal shaking/rolling, nor even that there were any disputes or unpleasant scenes as a result of these illegalities, which were ultimately resolved without official intervention. The Nordic in particular is a huge event, so we must assume that his finger is sufficiently on the TD’s and others pulse to have known about such incidents.
He also clearly rules out there being any instances of bad feeling – ie that one player caused their opponent by not following the rules on random rolls – and that was not expressed by that opponent. Unfortunately, as Anna has basically been saying for a while now, 90% of that iceberg is under the surface.
He further excludes one other thing. That is that, on one or more occasions, including during any of the aforementioned instances, one or more players were cheated by an opponent – sufficiently skilled in the art of dice manipulation – that their victims could not be sure of it, or knew they could not prove it so did nothing, or even that they were completely oblivious to it. How he knows all this is beyond me.
I don’t mean to offend anyone here, but the naivety expressed in some of these posts and, not infrequently, at other times is just staggering. Do these players/directors really believe the employment of a lipped cup will ensure fair rolling, perhaps, even, if the player ‘forgets’ to shake their dice?! They are sadly deluded.
It has long been known that, in the game of Craps, dice can be manipulated by skillful means, and there are various techniques, like the Whip Shot, Slide Shot, Drop Shot for example. They don’t use a cup, but they have to roll or throw the dice from behind one end of a 12 to 14 foot table to the other, making contact with the other end – which has rubberised pyramids on it! Yet, some can do it to devastating effect! Going from that to an UNlipped cup for backgammon is easy, as they can slide the dice out, where they then hardly have to go anywhere of course – as sometimes happens even with an honest thrower. A lipped cup means the dice can’t be slid out, but they can be tipped or whipped out suddenly, where one or both dice may not touch the lip. Unsurprisingly, that is known to be a lot easier than dice manipulation along a 12 foot table! And to quote Darwin Ortiz, author of ‘Gambling Scams’, which is used as a textbook by university and casino training programs worldwide: “…backgammon players are even more naive on the subject of cheating than are Craps players; and the rules of the game are tailor made for cheating.
So, how on earth can John know that he’s “yet to meet anyone that can throw a specific roll from a lipped cup.”? The only evidence left by a skilled cheat could be that they ‘luckily’ got the right number. Many people are unaware, for example, that a die can be held on the inside or outside of the cup, and dropped onto the board. If it’s inside, then the other die can be used to give the sound of shaking – not that a cheat will necessarily be doing that anyway; they can frequently get away with it – and only once in a match could make a big difference.
John’s self congratulatory challenge to dice mechanics is pointless. He is offering 50 to 1 odds – though the actuality of the numbers required are not amplified; no matter. Firstly: no, I’m not able to manipulate dice. No doubt I should have invested the tens or hundreds of hours needed to do it moderately well, just to disprove players self-deception; but I haven’t. Nor do any of my friends have this skill – to my knowledge, anyway! Do I know any dice mechanics? I’m reasonably certain that I’ve met at least three, possibly several. Unsurprisingly, I’m not in touch with them, I doubt that they read this forum, and why anyway would they want to come out from under their stone? They’ve got their fairly closed chouettes, heads up sessions or private matches; wouldn’t help sustain those games if they took this challenge! Further, some – perhaps wondering whether they had been cheated by these individuals in the past – would be left in no doubt after hearing about John paying out to them here, with possibly serious consequences to follow! Finally, criminals and low lifes are not known for their altruism, so playing for a charity holds little appeal for them.
I’ve heard the one about frightening off beginners before. Rather than misleading them about the impregnability of lipped cups, how about if they were offered something along the lines of: “Cheating from lipped cups is diffiicult, though it can be done. Very few players are likely to try, but if you’re concerned just get a BB; you can always insist upon using it in tournaments, and nobody will mind – except the cheats, of course!” LOL!
John stated how I’ve failed to attend and support UKBGF events (ie that had BB Preference). Playing in events is not the only way to support them: my subscription to a 3 year Premium Membership this year will help. And I did not ‘fail’ to attend, of course; I chose not to!
FWIW for the London Open I did not fancy having to get up at 6 am to be on an 0730 train – at the very latest – to get to the venue for the stated 0900 Sunday start. For the UK Open, I would naturally have wanted to have seen ‘BB Preference’ stated early enough for me to take advantage of the reduced hotel price, whereas this was actually only made public shortly before the event. In truth, I would not have been in a rush to sign up even if BB Preference had been stated earlier, as seeing how it all panned out for a while also had its merits. How right I might have been:
“…I made it abundantly clear on the run up and during the UKBGF Open that if I was drawn against a player insisting on a BB that I would resign the game.” John Wright
It is at least slightly surprising that anyone was allowed to enter on that basis. I imagine, perhaps, entry lists were scanned, discrete enquiries were made. As one who is so used to attending events where, with a wave of a hand, an opponent can preclude the use of a baffle box and/or clock – when I do attend one where the opposite is true – I expect my opponent to respect that prerogative fully. Are there no ethical issues around such a default – like are we not expected to make an honest effort? What about the effect it could have upon any Calcutta Auction? An opponent’s refusal to play may be quietly viewed as a welcome gift in some circles, but the rest of us would feel very much otherwise. And, instead of threatening to insert a legitimate piece of backgammon equipment into the posterior region of its owner, perhaps we should descend from our own instead?
Referring to BB players as paranoid is also offensive of course, but it is not the first time that I have been insulted in this way. Three years ago, straight after the final of a team event, a player made a beeline for me and harangued me, for a minute or two, on my predilection for BB use. Unlike him, I remained non-confrontational throughout. At the end of this, clearly for others to overhear, he stated: “I think you’re paranoid; UK players are honest!” immediately spinning quickly away. Later, I found that this particular player always insists upon the use of a lipped cup. Now, this is their right within the rules – and rightly so – but how is that stance not a contradiction? If we trust our opponents then we should not need anything as potentially invidious as a lipped cup! We’re not paranoid John, we just believe in principles – like players acting in an open manner; wearing our integrity on our sleeve. A BB is the surest and only consistent way to achieve this.
“The BB preference UKBGF rule plays , in my humble opinion, into the hands of a small minority.”
Removing it could help play into the hands of an even smaller minority. I nonetheless anticipate that it soon will be.
The baffle box: that honourable piece of gaming equipment that has EVERY right to a place beside the backgammon board!
For some curious reason I’m left with no facility to reply to Alistair’s latest post, so do so here:
Alistair, Firstly, I think you’ll find that quite a lot of us bg players actually are geeky dorks!
Secondly, if that particular rule suggestion I made – in another thread several months ago – is never worthy of adoption, then fine. (UKBGF Rules currently don’t have any requirement for number of shakes, clocked or otherwise). But why bring it up here? This is an article on baffle boxes.
“But why bring it up here?”
…Because I don’t think it’s a coincidence the key person pushing for a tourney standard that basically says after I’ve randomised my dice rolls by shaking in a cup, I then do not have the right to refuse to further randomise them by dropping them into a large plastic contraption balanced on the side of my board…..is the same person who would happily call you for an illegal roll because they only saw you shake your dice cup up and down 3 times and not 4, and we happen to be on a clock….. 🙂
Hey I get the baffle box thing and how they can help with cocked dice etc. – I just don’t think I should be forced to use one 🙂
I think the key person pushing for a tourney standard is Jon; he wrote the article. Worldwide, that honour is held by Phil Simborg. And you have got me totally wrong: in the dozen or so national events I’ve entered in the last 3 years or so (mostly Biba) I have never once called the TD because of shaking or rolling issues, I’ve just put up with it as I hate the unpleasantness that surrounds it.
I guess if I’m being unreasonable by not wanting to use a baffle box, they are easy enough to buy in the UK, from a range of different suppliers…?
btw, saw in the papers today about the R&A rewriting the rules of golf, to try and attract new players to the game who may be put off by their complexity (there were 13 rules originally in 1774, now there are 34, with 2,000 sub sections and exceptions). Hope we’re not going the same way with some of these new backgammon rules – Colin mentioned ‘5 up and down shakes’ in his post, and I know there was another suggestion about ‘3 up and down shakes’ if using a clock, ‘4 up and down shakes’ if not somewhere too (or was it the other way round, I forget!). Anyway, if I was a beginner player reading that, I’d probably be thinking – “mmmm ok then….maybe there’s a monopoly club near me instead” 😉 😉
To be honest, rather like a significant part of Sean’s post (to which I was replying) I find part of Alistair’s statement to lack any basis in reality.
Yes, I referred to the fact that I personally like to do 5 shakes with a BB (and no more), but in no way suggested that this should be the rule! I mentioned it in the context of Sean’s claim that us BB players tend to over shake. In fact, I stated in my original post on this thread that I doubted that shaking the dice with a BB should be a legal requirement of rules at all (which, with version 1.3 of the UKBGF Rules, it no longer is).
What is it about players who dislike BB that gets them in such a muddle? Danny wonders whether you need to use precision dice with one, Alistair reads something into my statement that simply doesn’t exist, and Sean is berating us BB players for overshaking; this, from a player who routinely shook TEN to SIXTEEN TIMES (I was counting) in our last tournament match, with a BB, two to three times what I was doing!
Hi Colin – If you read what I said carefully, I was actually making a general comment about rules, not baffle boxes in particular and was referring to another post you’d made earlier (see ‘About Time’ blog)- just to prove I was ‘basing it on reality’ I’ll quote it 🙂
“For the issues around inadequate shaking and cocked dice, I have two suggestions. After – very hopefully – changing UKBGF rules
to require (at least) 3 up and down shakes, make it 4 for clock play. This will help reduce the time advantage enjoyed by minimal shakers…..”
Alistair,
I said that part of your statement lacked a basis in reality, and I stand by that:
“Colin mentioned ‘5 up and down shakes’ in his post, and I know there was another suggestion about ‘3 up and down shakes…”
That clearly implies that you regarded the first as a suggestion, yet it was not; I merely stated what I personally do (5 shakes with a BB), not what I think others should have to do, as a legal requirement.
You also clearly think that my belief that we should have to do at least 3 up and down shakes, in which I am far from alone (and the current St Albans Rules BTW), or that adding one to that requirement for clock play, for the reason mentioned, might put off newbies. If someone likes the game, these are not details that are likely to turn them to other games. And if they are dizzied by these numbers, I would suggest they have little aptitude for the game, and would soon lose interest anyway!
Colin – it’s not that I’m suggesting newbies would be “dizzied” by these numbers, I’m suggesting that we, as backgammon players, are possibly seen by some other people, as a bunch of geeky dorks 😉 Having a rule about “3 up and down shakes, but 4 up and down shakes for clock play….” possibly isn’t going to help with that impression 🙂 🙂
I’m also saying that – like golf – you can have one (or several hundred) too many rules – for our own backgammon rules I’d suggest this is one such example.
Baffle Boxes…………
I’m actually against Baffle Boxes……for the following reasons……
1) They SLOW the game down ! If you notice people still put the dice in their cups, shake as they normally do and slip them in the Box ! When both players do this during the course of the match it creates one thing, Time Wastage ! Also if I watch a game when a Baffle Box is being used and the two players do the above, I just get Frustrated ! I say to myself ” OMG, Sort yourselves out ! You don’t need a Toy ! Get Rid of it and get down to the business of putting your dice in your Cup, Shake Vigorously ! Eject ! Move your Chequers into Position ! And pick your Dice up, all in a Smooth, Sharp, Precise, Authoritative Manner !
2) They take away Human Touch ! This is when players ( and I fall into this category ) Find themselves at a Board with a Baffle Box already Erected ! You sit down and then the inevitable question. ” Do you mind if we play with my Baffle Box ? ” ” Well ” I think to myself ” I’d rather not play with your Box ! ” But being an easy going guy, I just say ” Ok that’s fine “. Now here’s a Tip ! If you don’t like playing with your opponents Box ! Here’s what you do……On your turn. Quickly pick the Dice up with your hand and put them straight in the Box as fast as you can ! In one swift movement. Straight in their Box ! On the odd occasion if you move fast enough they say ” Did they both drop into my Box ? ” I usually reply ” Not sure, I know one did, maybe the other Dice wasn’t too keen on entering your Box ! Believe it or not, Box Players actually still like a small amount of wrist action prior to emptying their Cups ! They won’t say anything ! They just don’t like it ! Especially when you constantly hit the numbers you want ! Just letting them have it with their own Box ! No better feeling !
3) The End Game ! Now here’s the main reason they should not be used !!!!
The End Game…… This is where the next Roll will Win or Lose the Match !
This is why I Play ! For that SPECIAL MOMENT !!! The Anticipation ! The Unknown ! Will I feel complete Relief or will I be left Frustrated ? Your Heartbeat Races ! You try to stay Calm and Focussed yet inside you have that Burning Raging Desire for instant Fulfilment !
This is the moment you need to be Hands On ! This is how I like to play my final Act ! I pick my Dice up, slightly slower than I normally would. I hold them in my hand and squeeze them tightly, making them Touch and Rub together and pass my Positive Energy into them ! I drop them gently into my Cup visualising what I need to Hit ! I then start my penultimate movement ! I am totally immersed in the moment ! I look my opponent deep inside their eyes ! We become one ! We are joined together in mind and emotion ! Both wanting to know what the the next few seconds will bring ! I start to shake my Dice very slowly, then build up the Pace ! Faster and Faster ! Then I pause, slowing down my wrist action, just Teasing my opponent ! I can see that they are ready but I like to let them wait a few extra seconds ! This is my moment ! I can feel their Heartbeat racing away, they Touch their Face ! Flick their Hair back
and take a Deep Breath ! At that point I empty my Cups ! The Dice Roll and Tumble ! Bounce and Touch ! First at a Rapid Pace ! Then Slowing Down until they Fall to Rest !
” Cocked ” my opponent Screams OMG ! ” I shout. ” Thats exactly what I needed ! ” But not with one Dice falling to rest on my opponents Blot on the 3 Point ! ! !
And so I start again, only this time I don’t mess around I just get down to Business ! I pick the Dice up. Shake Hard and Fast ! Then let my opponent have them straight across the Board !
Again they Roll ! Touch and Bounce ! Only this time they both Come to Rest at the Same Time !
My opponent Shouts ” Yes, Yes ! ” End Game ! They Win ! They take a Deep Breath and tell me ” Wow that was Sooooooooo Good ! ” ” Yeap ! ” I Reply…….I then say ” Glad U enjoyed it ! ” I then say to myself
“That’s exactly what I need ! Maybe Next Time !!!!!!!!!! ”
Now ! There U have it ! U can’t get anywhere close to that by using a Baffle Box ! Just picking them up and Dropping them in the Box !!!!
Sometimes you need to Hold the Roll ! Only slightly, to increase the Tension and Anticipation !
As in Poker they just wait before they turn their Cards over !
This is Backgammon’s Orgasmic Moment !
Sean Clennell
My uncle was a card mechanic. He cheated people and retired very wealthy. Cheats do exist and baffle boxes make it hard for them to cheat. For the record using smaller dice (they are harder to manipulate), a baffle box and only 2 dice which are left on the board then used by the other player are your best protection.
I do not use cups, I drop them into the baffle box and this is miles faster for actual play.
My uncle taught me how to deal seconds, stack cards etc, I used that knowledge and joined the magic circle and did magic shows to earn money in my teenage years. I have taught poker players how not to be cheated. The scary thing is my uncle was a nice guy – who would cheat you out of your money without a second thought. Lets make Backgammon as cheat free as we can whether the cheating is intentional or not.
Sean,
By Christ, we need characters like you in the game!
I do remember playing a chouette at the Double Fives around 15 years ago, when the proprietor, George Sulimirski, to whom I was of course paying table fees for the privilege of playing him, to my surprise suddenly expressed discontent at my shaking the dice in the cup – probably about 10 times – before tossing them into the BB: “It’s irritating!”
I asked him then how many times I should shake, to which he replied “One, it’s symbolic” Happy days!
I’m aware of this issue for some players, particularly when clocks are not also being used. (When using a clock you can do what the hell you want; your time is your own.) Yet some others will still expect you to shake properly, using the BB as a supplement to the usual procedure. I’ve thought about this balancing act, and decided upon a number quite some months ago: 5. Ask my heads up players Eric or Jon about this, and I’m sure they’ll confirm they’ve noticed this, and that it seems to almost never vary!
What flummoxes me about your comments, aimed at BB players in general of course not necessarily me, is the fact that, when we played a held over final earlier in the year, before casting the dice into my baffle box you routinely shook them, up and down, 10-16 times!
I say it again… we need characters like you in the game!!!
An adjunct. My email recently, to a handful of players, sparked Jon’s article. He didn’t add that I said I would play in the St Albans tourney exactly twice more this year, before calling it a day (unless the rules are changed, of course). I have a chance of winning the Fotiadis Cup, and to fall a couple of tournaments short of the qualifying number would be disrespecting the institution kindly instigated by Leon Fotiadis, five years ago. Two others are just one short, and are both in contention. As one of them moved to Norfolk this year, and the other lives in Singapore, they are exempt of such denigration if they don’t play the extra one; I live but 2 miles down the road, so I’ll be doing those extra two, and will not have broken my pledge.
Col
Brilliant Sean:)) May the dice gods be with you next time…
Sean – you are to be commended on your vigorous shaking of the dice 🙂 and I can assure you that, armed with this information, I would, never ask you to place your dice in my baffle box, for that very reason.
My baffle box is strictly for people who don’t shake their dice, and, therefore do not empty their cups properly.
Given that you do both so well, have no fear, I shall never ask to erect my baffle box on your board 🙂
PS. I can only recall one occasion when you did put your dice in my baffle box – long before I had experience of your commendable shaking action – and can only say that had I sensed any hesitation on your part I would never have got it out 😉
Jon – I think you climbed into my head 🙂 You have articulated, perfectly, my argument for baffle boxes.
I’m sick to death of playing against people who tip out superjokers without even moving their dice – let alone shaking vigorously.
66 66 11 33 44 22
“Well – look at that – would you believe it?”
Hmm – yes, actually – ‘coz you never moved your frigging dice!
Happens at every tournament, regularly – Illegal dice rolling – and the guilty party are not new-comers; they are experienced players who know damn well that they’re supposed to shake their dice and they also know that I’m not going to call a TD after every dice roll.
I love Backgammon and when I’m playing I want to have fun. It’s no fun playing against people like that – they just ruin the game for me.
These people may not be intending to cheat, but the fact remains that it’s illegal to do that, so, in a sense, it IS cheating – just without intent.
In my comments so far I did not mention that for the final of the New Zealand champs we made the rule that a baffle box would be used. NO if, but or maybe – all the rules were send to every player before they registered along with the rule that if one player want a BB and the other did not then it would be used. NO one objected then or on the day.
As the tournament director I only had 1 issue the entire tournament unlike previous years. The rules we used were (short version):-
1) if one player want a baffle box and the other did not then it would be used
2) for the final a baffle box will be used
3) only 2 dice would be used and when your move is finished you tap the side of the board
4) 4 monitors had the right to watch any match and point out any illegal move. repeat illegal moves would be subject to a penalty.
It was the fifth and Easiest tournament I have ever been the TD for. No arguments between players and I am sure the rules made it so much better.
you know people are losing the argument when they get personal! The subject matter is Baffle Boxes and not an individual!
Last year, I was in discussion with a social care worker who was working with an individual with extremely limited use of hands. The individual was considering coming along to play backgammon with us. One of their concerns was that a traditional throwing cup would be difficult to manipulate unless they used their feet. One option to help was the possibility of a baffle box. We agreed however a more complete solution was for an assitant to throw dice and move pieces at the instruction of the player.
It is possible that there may be situations when the use of a baffle box may be an access requirement.
I regularly play with a guy who suffers from RSI and hates shaking the dice cups. For him Baffle boxes are an accessibility issue and they have kept him in the game.
This is surely just one aspect of an area (generating random numbers) that will run and run – if it’s not technique (shaking, verticality, number of times, side-to-side, height of release, avoidance of fingering, bounce, rolling across the board), then it’s cup design (diameter, length, lip), or it’s dice (size, precision, serial-numbered, certificated, opaque/transparent), etc, etc.
Surely a far better solution would be a modified “diceclock” that also generates (electronically) each player’s dice-roll each time the clock is operated? Just to be clear: I’m not suggesting mandatory clock-play – for unclocked matches the clock function would be turned off and the diceclock used purely for generating “rolls”.
No more premature-rolling arguments either.
And for the paranoiacs who then question the randomness of the generated rolls, a USB port so they can take away for meticulous analysis at home, a complete record of all the rolls for the match.
Your article on Baffle Boxes is very interesting Jon. Personally I dont like them and have played with them many times and the main reason for disliking them are points 3 & 5 which you mention.
I am not sure it is any quicker to play with a BB and for sure dice does cock – they can land on a checker or not both be flat in the same way as someone who rolls legally.
I now raise the following points – firstly, if you think BB are so good and unequivocally fair do you therefore think players should be able to throw the dice with their hands – I certainly do not think they should.
Also, if the dice are so unequivocally fair by the use of BB then does it matter whether precision dice are used or not?
There is no need to change what is time honoured – that is non use of BB . Next you will have major discussions on whose BB is more accurate!!!
Please make it Optional.
Precision dice are a must – mis-shapen and unbalanced dice will still favour the same numbers whether they roll out of a cup, out of a baffle box, direct from the hand, or anything else.
I believe the BB randomises the dice to such an extent that they can be entered into the box by hand.
Precision dice of course – what a daft question!
Opinion is divided on the subject of which is quicker. the whole BG world thinks that BBs are, you apparently do not.
A little too much Birthday sherry for brunch Danny? 😉
Jon I feel I need to stand up for Danny here. He is quite capable of asking silly questions WITHOUT the need for sherry!
“There is no need to change what is time honoured – that is non use of BB . ”
Things change for the better. As a tournament director not having to deal with the issue of he/she rolls “funny” and the associated bad feelings is a definite plus.
It is “time honoured” not to play with clocks so do you want clocks not to be used? Clocks are great – they are the way of the future as are baffle boxes.
I the last tournament where we made it so that if one player wanted a baffle box both had to use it, in all the matches (except one) players dropped the dice into the box by hand. It seemed to me much faster. In one match my opponent really wanted to shake his dice so he used a cup, shook his dice then dropped them from the cup into the baffle box. He was happy as long as he could shake the dice.
HI, I organise the New Zealand Backgammon champs and we made a rule that started this year and will continue regarding the use of Baffle boxes. The rule is – “if either play wants a baffle box then BOTH players must use the Baffle box”. Simple so that for a baffle box not to be used then both players must not want to use a baffle box. No player objected and I played every match using one – and I made it to the final.
The event was without clocks but we made it so that only one pair of dice was used and that you tapped the edge of the board to indicate the end of your turn. This removed the issue of premature rolls and again no one had an issue with this.
Readers may be amazed to know that baffle boxes were actually invented by the Romans… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vettweiss-Froitzheim_Dice_Tower though whether the UKBGF would ever encourage using ones that celebrate military victories is another thorny question!
There was a discussion a while back on BGOnline about mechanics who could control dice through a baffle box, if they could drop them in by hand – pressed together between the fingers in a pre-determined way – because there was nothing inside the box to make the dice tumble left/right. The sensible conclusion was that cups should still be used. It would be interesting to see if baffle box designers can come up with an elegant way to get motion in both directions.
There is a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem though – there are not widely available, so people don’t see them in use, which means little demand for manufacturers. Having said that, I’m surprised they haven’t taken off more in games like Monopoly where stray dice rolling off the table or knocking playing pieces out of position is a perpetual hazard.
When the BB is on my left, I don’t like having to reach across and roll on the left hand side of the board. If they were mandatory I would want them on both sides of the board.
I prefer not playing with them at all, they don’t add anything and take away a fun part of the game. The cups do a good enough job of randomising the dice already.
I’ll address several posters points here, if I may.
If a player (like Leonard) does not like a BB on one particular side, then I would hope that the player who desired its use would allow them to have it whichever side they wanted. Doing otherwise is hardly popularising BB’s and, with BB Option, could result in a change of mind from their opponent! It really should not be necessary to use two BB’s though. However, it is certainly possible and, depending upon the type of BB’s used, could even combine with clock and/or scoreboard use.
“The cups do a good enough job of randomising the dice already.” Leonard.
If dropping/throwing dice from a cup did a consistently good enough job of randomising the dice, then there would be no requirement to shake the dice at all, let alone ‘vigorously’ or ‘up and down 3 times’ etc. They don’t, however: hence the shaking rule which, sadly, some players disregard, causing contention and bad feeling, very often not actually expressed, I’m sure. Why not? Well, even more sadly, some players react badly to being told they have not shaken properly, or sufficiently, or even not at all, and many of us will also be loathe to involve the TD.
Julia, the mechanics who could control dice through a BB (at the Cavendish West Club in LA, back in the ’80’s) could not do it through every BB. The detail of the story is that some of the BB’s that were in use were old, and poorly designed; dice could be fed by hand deep into the BB, or even dropped through, missing the baffles. Merely dropping them in from a cup, without shaking did, indeed, solve the problem. In the last 20 years I have seen around 15 different types of BB and, whether or not they were designed to deflect dice left or right, the dice had to drop from one slope (baffle) to the next, then a further drop of 1-3 inches onto the board, where the length of the subsequent roll is very unpredictable. How can this not contribute enormously towards randomness? Just to be sure, on the various BB’s that I have brought along to events in recent years, I have added things that deflect the dice; these can be seen on Jon’s BB, a Simborg one. Phil’s more recent BB’s all have three baffles/slopes that are not flat; instead, they each have six slots running across them which deflect the dice as they descend. BTW, Phil has sold around 200 BB’s! There are also dice towers available online which are like a baffle box, but have a tray that the dice roll into, and are becoming quite popular in some other games. Many types are available, perhaps hundreds, including some shaped like castles or medieval houses for example, used in role playing games.
I do agree with one of Danny’s points: the default should be that cups are also used. Whether or not they make any difference at all to randomness with a good BB, they will still help give peace of mind to some players. Only by mutual consent IMO should cups be dispensed with but, again, it would hardly be popularising the use of BB’s for the BB provider to go against whatever their opponents wishes are here. A player new to the BB might forget, and roll from a cup straight onto the board; they won’t from the hand! I do prefer to use a cup with the BB and also shake the dice, but I doubt it should be a legal requirement. Part of the beauty of using a BB is how it removes subjectivity: did he shake properly or enough? Doesn’t matter. Did one die leave the cup before the other one hit the board/came to rest? Easily!
Jon, the new Sochy event was BB Mandatory. And Michael Crane rightly imposed one on a player 2 or 3 years back (I had one spare). I’ve never seen this lady remotely upset before; she was very upset with this guy though who, it was increasingly clear to her, was trying to control the dice from the cup. When handing the BB over, one player fixed me with a serious look, and remarked that this was the only instance where they would agree with its use. How much better though, to have avoided the upset in the first place?